Gemma Livermore: Hello and welcome to Seismic Sessions podcast. Very much looking forward to today. We are joined as always by my co host, Rachael Rowe. Good to have you here again, Rachael.
Rachael Rowe: Hi Gemma, lovely to be here. I agree with you. I think we’re going to have a really good discussion today
Gemma Livermore: Awesome. And we’re also joined by Nicki Auret, HR Director at ICBC Standard Bank. Hi Nicki.
Nicki Auret: Hi Gemma, hi Rachael, lovely to be here.
Gemma Livermore: for coming along. And lastly, but not leastly, we have Monica Stanku, Senior Diversity, Inclusion, and Wellbeing Manager at Lloyds. Hi Monica.
Monica Stanku: Hi, lovely to be here. Thank you for having me.
Gemma Livermore: Thank you for coming along. And as I say, I’m very much looking forward to today’s topic today. We’re going to be looking at the evolution of learning and coaching in financial services, which I think we can all agree has come a long way. Maybe it’s just me saying it’s a long way because I’ve been in the industry for long enough to remember how it used to be, but we’re about to get into that in a bit more detail.
So, our regular listeners will know that we keep the structure of our podcast in the, theme of our earthquakes. So we go back to the beginning and look at the tremors. First of all, of where movements of change began. Then we come to the epicentre of where we’re at now. And then we’re going to go into the really nice part of the aftershocks of where we think things are going to move in the future.
And I always like that section of making your predictions. So let’s get started. Let’s look back at the tremors. So, anyone else been in the industry as long as I have, if I look back 20 odd years? you know, I can remember a time when things such as onboarding and learning and coaching used to be really set and in person and digital, to a rigid plan. And while that was all very good when I was, you know, in my early twenties and able to be in the office every day, that’s not always been the case for everybody in every situation. So while it did have its benefits, there were also definitely things that needed to change, which is what we’ve seen happen.
if I can go first of all to Nicki, how did you see things in terms of learning and coaching and onboarding when you began your career?
Nicki Auret: Well Gemma, I think I’m even tad older than you are, but I certainly remember, um, lots of classroom based learning, um, graduate programs that were all about meeting potential candidates through many, many face to face interviews. and then making offers and candidates joining the organisation and spending a week in a boot camp type training environment in a hotel somewhere, and listening to, module after module of members of the organisation coming in and delivering face to face learning and wow things have changed so much since then.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah, and it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because everybody always goes back to that first piece of onboarding. Did you have any experience in terms of learning and coaching ongoing at that period? I know I had some, but again, it was very rigid and in person and not necessarily flexible in any way.
Okay.
Nicki Auret: That’s exactly right. It wasn’t. It was, it was literally, you know, leverage files of paper to go through, even the learning method, I think, in those days was fairly traditional, and certainly, yes, face to face.
Rachael Rowe: It’s really interesting, Nicki, what you, what you’ve just pulled out there. So, um, I don’t want to give my age away either, but I think that we’ve probably had similar kinds of experiences. And I remember going on a graduate, I started in an investment bank and I went into the graduate trainee program and we were actually three months in a kind of classroom environment.
It was a fantastic program, but it must have cost an absolute fortune and it was all delivered to us in one style. So if you’re, I guess, I didn’t think about it then, but knowing what I know now, if your learning style was different, there was no accommodation for that. You know, everything was delivered in, in one way and it was a very kind of, you talked about it being linear, Gemma. It was a very linear kind of experience. and I think it was more a case of, you know, we’ve, we’ve got these new folks, we’re just going to throw everything at them. and then after that. then we finished the training and that’s it.
And so it wasn’t kind of a continuous journey, it was a one and done kind of approach.
Gemma Livermore: Exactly that. And I think that was a part that I look back on as a missing piece, although I didn’t recognise this at the time, to your point, Rachael, is that continuous learning piece, you know, you’re expected to, on board and learn everything in that first part, but there wasn’t that continuation plan always in place.
Monica, what about yourself? What was your experience like when you first came into the industry?
Monica Stanku: well, when I first started working, I do agree that, it felt that the learning offer was quite limited in a lot of organisations content wise. The formal learning tended to be off the shelf, quite generic, not really adapted to the specific needs of the individual. I think in general, training tended to be focused more on leaders rather than the general population.
And developing them to deliver business results. think about coaching, it, it used to be quite limited, formal, um, usually reserved for leaders, and it was usually offered when there was some sort of issue. So I think it had a bit of a negative connotation in the past, if you had to go through coaching, but now it’s more widely available at all levels of the organisation.
It’s more informal. So if I think about, Lloyd’s for instance, I went through a six months line management program, uh, which was fantastic. And as part of that, one of the modules was focused on coaching and encouraging all line managers to learn the basics of coaching and have a coaching approach. To management, which I think it shows progress and it shows that, now organisations are encouraging leaders to have a much more democratic approach to how they do things.
Rachael Rowe: There’s an interesting adage, isn’t there, that you know, what if we train our people and they leave? And the reverse of that being, you know, what if we don’t train them and they stay? And I think that was, that felt like that was the attitude, um, that I was coming into early on in my career as far as training and development was concerned.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah. And I like the fact you brought up there, you know, that coaching has had its negative connotations over the years. And you’re completely right there, Monica. I remember a time where if you were needing coaching for missing something in your career, it was seen as a negative. You know, why did you not already have that string to your bow?
And I think that’s, that’s something that we’ve really moved away from when you look at how things are now in terms of employees wanting more from their employers in terms of what are you going to teach me while I’m here with you? And that’s, that’s been a real movement and I think that’s a really good thing to bring up in this tremors part.
So, maybe if we now segue to the epicentre and start talking about how people do expect more from roles, and how learning and coaching post COVID has actually become a huge part of this as people start to want more from a package. Nicki, what have you seen in your HR role in terms of that, of what people expect when they’re looking for their next job?
Nicki Auret: It’s really interesting conversation from so many different angles. when we talk about what people are looking for, it’s hard not to acknowledge the multigenerational workforce we have at the moment. And I actually think what leaders and people and culture professionals have had to think about is how do we deliver across an employee lifecycle to a range of different needs.
But one thing is constant is that employees definitely want something new from work. We’re moving much more from a loyalty job for life type contract to what was more about engagement and then thriving really in organisations and increasingly looking forward. People are looking for more connection.
They’re looking for more choice, and they’re looking to come to organisations as contributors. As opposed to just takers, certainly are growing their careers in a very different way. And, so just purely from the people development perspective and the life cycle perspective, we’re having to be much more creative around how we are relevant to people. And certainly the learning and the coaching, agenda is, very linked to that. Much more personalised learning journeys for people. There’s opportunity for them to lean in to different aspects of their role to develop different skills. The fact that skills are really the real currency in work at the moment, as opposed to broader roles and, and definitely just the opportunity to the coaching point made earlier is It’s so true for me, from remediation to something that’s much more mutually beneficial, whether it’s reverse coaching and mentoring, programs, we talk about those as well, a lot, and how do we sort of develop that mutual, benefit and relationship in an organisation.
Gemma Livermore: I love the idea of looking at that mutual beneficial side as well, where you’re working together. And I think there’s been a rise of people going for roles that they don’t feel a hundred percent of, but they feel, you know, 80 or 90 percent of with the company filling that other 10 to 20 percent with that learning and coaching aspect.
And, not that I’d ever recommend anyone to listen to any podcast off other than this one, but I was listening to, um, a high performance podcast with Richard Branson recently. And he made a point of saying that he always employs people that aren’t quite a hundred percent at that role, gives them the learning and coaching to achieve a hundred percent in that role.
And then he gains that loyalty from them as well, because he’s, you know, giving them that mutual respect and that mutual learning and they get, then give that loyalty back, which I think is a really interesting method and approach as well. Monica, what about yourself? What have you seen in terms of that?
Monica Stanku: So I would say that technological advances have really allowed people to access e-learning from everywhere and going back to that idea of, you know, the five generations being in the in the workplace and people having different needs and different ways that they want to consume information.
I think we are seeing now more on demand, e-learning, micro learning as well. People want to be able to, you know, do a quick course on maybe diversity and inclusion or well being or something directly related to to their work, on their way to the office or when they’re going back home.
I think we’re seeing, that flexible, I guess e-learning that we have available now. I would also say that there is a bigger emphasis on accessibility; organisations are much more proactive now about making sure that whatever you’re learning the use that that has been tested for accessibility.
And we are also learning has become much more accessible in general, or more democratic in the sense that you have a lot of free podcasts, webinars, YouTube videos, TikTok accounts. So people can use those resources to upskill and reskill themselves, so they don’t always need to just rely on their employer to give them access to information.
We are also seeing employers pushing different types of learning, so it’s not just about formal, learning degrees, diplomas, but also mentoring, reverse mentoring, shadowing someone, coaching, rotation programs. And so I think we have a much more holistic, I guess, approach to, to learning now.
Rachael Rowe: So I think it’s really interesting because I think what we’ve seen is a real dynamic change taking place and I think it’s been catalysed by technology, but folks have much more choice. So employees have much more choice over their careers, the direction of their career, you know, if they want to shift career partway through, they have that flexibility.
And similarly, customers, clients also have more choice, and so I think this growing awareness of the employee journey and the client journey in parallel have really shifted the emphasis on how learning can enable the individual to excel much more effectively in their role, but how also it can deliver a stronger and more engaging client experience.
To have folks who, you know, understand their customers, understand their pain and understand their role to, to support that, customer journey. And I think it’s, really interesting just hearing from one of our, clients recently who talked about the fact that, you know, he, he would really like to see the opportunity further on in people’s careers to maybe introduce a flexible learning system that would facilitate maybe a change in career path or a change in direction. So thinking a little bit about the corporate athlete, if you like, and how we could perhaps include that later on in an individual’s career.
So that gives them more choice. They don’t necessarily continue along the path, which they’ve kind of developed expertise, and I think that’s a really interesting idea given that we’ve got these five generations in the workplace now, and a real need to kind of serve the needs for each of those different demographic groups.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah, and I think there’s also that point that Monica made a moment ago of where we need to pass the information along from generation to generation. You know, we’ve got a whole whole generation of baby boomers that are working that bit longer, but before they do leave, we need to ensure that they impart their knowledge to the younger generations in the workforce.
And how do we do that? But while they are working longer, is there some reverse mentoring that can happen there as well? Nicki, can you tell us if you have any stories about that?
Nicki Auret: I do, I mentioned earlier this fact that we’re delivering to, such a full spectrum, but , we’re spending a lot of time focusing on new generations and the coveted digital skills. It’s quite interesting because I’m finding our newer entrants and junior talent coming into the organisation with digital skills, but not necessarily the, the traditional business skills that are still quite core to an organisation.
So there are still learning needs. Even if you’re digitally enabled. But we also recognise that the population is aging fast. Older workers will represent a much more significant aspect of the workforce. And we as organisations need to adapt for this, for the spectrum, and think about the sort of requirements.
I’ve mentioned the employee life cycle a couple of times, but I think that’s one way to be very inclusive across multiple generations is thinking about key stages in people’s lives, what they may need and leaning into those requirements. from a, from a career life benefits, intrinsic and extrinsic reward perspective.
So I think the employee deal has evolved against the backdrop of yes, technology as an enabler, yes, a very different post COVID environment, but also where we’re seeing a lot more empathy and purpose lived and purpose led, organisations. We haven’t mentioned, um, the context of ESG, in the world of work as well.
And that’s also, just affecting how people come into the environment. And as I say, what they’re looking for. But career pivoting is definitely enabled by the ability to, as Monica mentioned earlier, to learn on demand, to build your skills and not think about your role the more traditional linear way as a ladder, the squiggly career concept of organisations, in other words, are able to facilitate internal career development in different ways, to allow job, exposure to different aspects of an organisation, to, enable, people to do short term assignments, to try different things, to learn different skills.
Gemma Livermore: And I think that continuous learning then leads to retention, does it not?
Nicki Auret: Very much so. I mean, we’re also accepting, that’s that 54 percent of young professionals they say are, you know, express a desire for a portfolio career far more than the traditional linear career that we’re used to. And yet we will have other aspects of the organisation who, would rather invent, reinvent themselves in an organisation than necessarily move externally to do that.
Rachael Rowe: I think that that’s a really interesting point as well, because as we see retention rates, or we’re starting to see, retention rates, really falling, at the same time, if onboarding, time is too long, we suddenly have a really big gap, organisationally, that I think learning and coaching can, can step in and fill if it’s done in the right way.
Gemma Livermore: I think there’s a real need for a seamless way to give your team what they need, and whenever they need it now, as we become a world that’s much more used to having things cut out. At a touch of a button with technical digitalisation, Monica, what do you see that is helping with retention on your side when it comes to that tech side?
Monica Stanku: I think it’s very much about making sure that you, connect your learning offer to what’s actually relevant, to your employees and to what your organisation needs. So you respond to that feedback. it’s about making sure that, your learning offer is flexible. it’s strategic. You think ahead about what, the needs of the organisation will be in the next few years and you’re proactive about making sure that, people know what’s available and what they will need to develop in the future.
I think it’s also important to connect your learning offer to your development plans that colleagues have. So, you know, as part of your objective settings, you can have, can make sure that each employee has a development plan put in place that can focus on, developing them in their current role, but also, uh, thinking ahead and then seeing what’s the offer that your organisation has and connect that
Gemma Livermore: Yeah, exactly. And I’d say in my own career, I’ve seen a real sort of pivot from training to coaching. and I know, you know, there are two words that sometimes mean the same thing, but what I mean by that is, you know, when I started off in this industry, it was more about the equipping me with what I needed to do my job then and there.
So going back to that grad scheme that you mentioned at the beginning, Nicki. Whereas now I find it’s more individual, as to your point, Monica, you know, what coaching do I as an individual need to step up to the next level? And I’ve got to say, you know, my squiggly, especially being a parent, I’ve gone always for a role that fits around my current lifestyle.
And I see that happening a lot more in the industry since COVID and people wanting that individual coaching to help them get to the next stage of what they want to get to. And I guess here is a good point for us to start looking into the future. You know, we’ve already noticed at the epicentre that It’s the first time in history that we have five generations in the workforce.
And how do we navigate that? But as we look into the future, what are your predictions of how the workplace will look? What do you think that we’re doing right at the moment that will carry on into the future? And what do you think is going to just be? Push to the side, like when we looked at the tremors and we thought of that, you know, rigid, in person training.
What do you think will become that for the future? So, Nicki, if I can go to you first?
Nicki Auret: Yeah, thanks, Gemma. I really firmly believe that if we don’t keep humans at the heart of, the world of work, we’re not going to optimise, tech that we have, in essence. And I think sort of unlocking human centric productivity, but against a digital background. I mean, it sounds, you know, not a simple thing, but it’s absolutely critical in, I think, shaping the future of work, for people. , I’m sure we’ve all heard the recent term is that, we won’t lose jobs to AI, that people without AI will lose jobs. Jobs to people with AI. And that’s the way people are starting to think about, the digital environment and cultivating a digital first culture, to make sure that we are actually optimising the tech that we see coming into the, workplace and practically for people, though an organisation is still going to need to feel like a place of trust and a place of equity.
And, I think that’s something that we are starting to see much more. In the context of our social responsibilities and appreciating that purpose, mission, and values in an organisation and a connection between individual purpose and values and an organisational, commitment, and the employee deal are so key.
And that if there’s alignment there, that we will see the retention rates that optimal retention rates, to enable an organisation. So I think climates of trust, fair pay for equity inclusion, are all cultures that we’re trying to cultivate right now. And I think we’re actually seeing that shift in, organisations in a really positive way.
Gemma Livermore: I like what you say there about, um, and I have heard it before, that it’s not AI taking over people’s roles, but people who don’t keep up with AI may lose their roles. Who do you think that sits with as we’re talking about learning and coaching? Is it the individuals, is it their responsibility to go out and find out about AI and train themselves?
Or do you see it as the employer’s?
Nicki Auret: Oh, it’s that is such a great question because I think environments that facilitate that development naturally and through, learner led So i.e, training solutions that are learner led and some of the points Monica made earlier around being accessible just in time, and that people can connect to in a flexible, proactive way.
I think those environments will think learners have to make the most of the opportunities they’re given. But I, it practically in my day job, we’re much more challenged about prioritising. investment technology enablement to deliver more digital environments to our people, particularly where they, you know, knowing that that’s what they will value over time.
So as work is an extension more broadly of our lives, it’s a core component of what we do, whether we do it in a hybrid way, we work from home, whether we’re working in the office. it’s got to be something that enables our growth, because that’s what people are looking for. They’re looking for growth, they’re looking for, an organisation where they can do something that they’re good at, that they love, that means something to them.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah. And I think there’s a real danger if companies don’t train their staff in AI, as we all, you know, work in a regulated environment that people may go off and use AI secretly, and that’s where some issues can happen, you know, if they’re throwing sensitive data into chat GPT. so I think there is a real need for us to set the standards if you like, as employers, if that makes sense.
Nicki Auret: Right. And we’re spending far more time looking at privacy issues, legal and compliance risks, et cetera, than, than necessarily the investments in test cases and tools. Thank you.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah, and I think there’s, um, a barrier there that we need to break down, which is it’s okay to use AI to, enable you in your role. You know, it’s not, uh, I think there was a time where people, you know, didn’t want to admit that they had used AI to create something that was then fabulous. Monica, how do you see that in terms of generations as we move forward?
Do you think that there’ll be a different response from each generation when it comes to AI?
Monica Stanku: Well, as we were, talking earlier, the, older generations will have to work longer. So we live longer. That means we will retire later on in life. So I think we have to be very careful about, uh, not leaving anyone behind when it comes to AI training and AI education. In general, we tend to focus on upskilling, younger people, but given that we will continue to have five generations in the workplace, it’s really important that we are mindful about giving everyone, access to this level of learning, so no one is left behind. Um, we are also seeing, generation, the, the younger generations coming in and they have very different expectations from the workplace.
They are, much more tech savvy. They’ve never known a world where there was no mass access to the Internet, right? Or social media. So they’re, they’re very, comfortable with technology. But at the same time, I think a lot of people across generations tend to be a bit wary about the possibility of AI and bias being built in AI. So I guess, yeah, it’s a, it’s a new area that, um, organisation should be, should be mindful of, in terms of the products they use and they, choose to, to help them solve some of their problems.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah, and I know that you’ve seen some issues with previous tech that’s been introduced with it not being inclusive enough. Could you give us an example of, um, you know, things that we do need to be wary of based on your experience of what you’ve seen?
Monica Stanku: Yeah, so there is a famous case now of facial recognition softwares that are used a lot in security at airports, for instance, that are not very good at recognising people that have darker skin tones. There are also cases where those facial recognition programs wrongly identified black men, in the U. S. for committing certain crimes, and people were arrested because of how this technology was used. And in the end, it was okay. They were released. But still, I imagine it’s quite a traumatic experience to be, and then going on and why you’ve been arrested. , so I think, yeah, that’s that’s a that shows how, uh, AI can go wrong.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah, So, and, and that’s back to the point that we’ve all made that there always needs that human element to it. So it’s more, you know, as a technology to enable us rather than to take over processes. we still need that human element, to keep it safe and add that part.
Rachael, how do you see the future of all of this looking?
Rachael Rowe: Yes, I think that AI, as we’ve already discussed, has a really important role to play in this, and I think that will catalyse the personalisation of coaching and training, because I think it will give a lot more capability to have an understanding at an individual level. You know, of where the challenges are, what support is needed, and then be able to, to provide that in the moment.
So I see this, kind of coaching emphasis, becoming much more front and center for organisations. I think particularly in FS, if we look at the world in which we live, you know, there’s a huge complexity around markets. products, new services, compliance. I mean, the list goes on in terms of what, go to market teams need to be aware of.
And I think being able to provide those in the moment learnings and they could be through different formats. And we, we’ve talked about the kind of the rigidity originally in the way that training and coaching was delivered. There’s an opportunity now that this could be peer driven, it could be through video, it could be through various different mediums depending on what engages that individual most effectively. So I think we’re at a really exciting moment, that we can really provide that performance enhancement in bite sized pieces in the moment as a continuous part of that employee journey. And I think that’s both incredibly productive for the organisation, but I think also, inspiring and very gratifying at an individual level to have that, focus and investment in your individual career within an organisation. So, um, I think it’s, uh, exciting times as far as learning and coaching is concerned.
Gemma Livermore: I completely agree with what you said there, Rachael. It’s really exciting, and it’s exciting to see it at that individual level and I predict in the future there’ll be more feedback when it comes to learning and coaching, because it’s one thing to impart information, On someone which is I think how we look back at the tremors, you know, you just get imparted information to start your role And then it came to this coaching element of where you know It’s individual and how can you be better and I see that next stage in terms of the aftershocks is really being feedback Of how did you do?
How can you do be better on an individual level? anyone got any last predictions that they would like to share or impart at this stage?
Nicki Auret: I’m actually thinking about something you’ve just said, Gemma, and how interesting you talk about feedback. And I wonder whether we will be more open to feedback from, a digital tool, that we’re more open to digital feedback
loops too.
Gemma Livermore: I think so because it’s less personal
Nicki Auret: It’s less personal. That’s right. What a, a cool way to think about the, we’ll get out of the, um, these different channels in the future. There are some great digital coaching solutions out there. yeah, I think it’s kind of really interesting despite what I’ve just said about human centricity, taking feedback from a channel that’s less personal feels very objective. There’s, um, I hadn’t thought about it like that. I
Rachael Rowe: think what, I really like that. I think it’s very interesting and I think the, where it becomes really powerful is then where you link that client journey with the employee journey. So where you’ve got visibility and understanding of what the client wants. but also that visibility and understanding of what the employee needs to be effective.
And you can tie the both elements together to provide a learning and coaching experience, which helps you as an organisation deliver those , and then that obviously is a big lever for growth. So I, I think there’s uh, you know, there’s a lot, um, that we can certainly build on there.
We, we see a lot with our, with the clients that we work with. It’s all about how you can tie the the data back, um, within your organisation from what you understand about your, your customer base and what you understand about your employees. So, um, yeah, it’s a very interesting point, Nikki.
Gemma Livermore: I love that. And Monica, any, any last words of wisdom you’d like to impart to our listeners?
Monica Stanku: I think virtual reality training is gonna be huge, uh, in the next few years. I think they’re still It’s not perfect yet, particularly from an accessibility perspective, but I think it will grow and will develop. Um, and I’ve actually, um, I was reading, about some examples where virtual reality training was used, uh, to train doctors, uh, uh, for surgeries, orthopedic surgeries, which I think is amazing. Um, so I think we will see a lot more of that, uh, in the next few years.
Gemma Livermore: I love that. And especially when we talk about that generational level, you see kids growing up in that virtual reality world and how they’ll then bring that into the workforce when they start as well. Um, so yeah, I love that idea. So the way that we end all of our podcasts is we ask everybody to give one word as a summary from what they’ve learnt from their conversation today, and then one sentence on why they’ve chosen that word. So, uh, Rachael, if I go to you first, what’s your word of the day from today’s podcast?
Rachael Rowe: I’m going to cheat a little bit and I’m going to go for two, I’m afraid. So I’m going to go for, for personalised micro learning. Um, that’s a bit of a mouthful because I think it will come down to those In the moment, learning experiences, and being delivered in a way that’s engaging for that individual, but, and the reason I use the word personalised is because I think it’s personalised both to the employee who’s receiving the learning and coaching. but also to the client at the end who is going to benefit from this more up skilled, go to market individual. So I think personalised in terms of the client as well as the employee journey.
Gemma Livermore: Monica, do you have a word?
Monica Stanku: Coaching. I think, uh, we will see a lot more line managers embracing coaching to be more effective and more inclusive, inclusive managers.
Gemma Livermore: Love that. Nicki?
Nicki Auret: I’ll stick with the word I had in the first place. Opportunity. Opportunity to do things better, to do things and to make a difference. Opportunity to make a difference.
Gemma Livermore: I love that. And I would say my word of today is continuous. Because I think the most important thing is to continually learn, no matter how you do it. It’s to keep giving people that feedback and that opportunity to grow. So I’ll go with continuous. Thank you very much for coming on today’s podcast. It’s been really interesting.
I think we could have all gone on for a lot longer than we have. but, you know, our podcasts are only half an hour, unfortunately. If anyone would like to reach out to any of us after the podcast, do give me a hookup on LinkedIn and I’ll make sure that we answer any questions that you have. Thank you.
